Repros/fakes/remanufactured stuff killing the hobby?

[SLOT DYNASTY]

I do not want to stir this pot any further, but I have some additional info on the results of arbitration that answers/clarifies comments posted above.

I have been informed;
The arbiter granted an award (based on the appraised value of the machine) from Cook to Saidman.
There were no other awards.
Each party paid his own fees/expenses.
Cook keeps the machine (which is common in disputes over an item of tangible personal property) but essentially paid for it twice; once to Seller and once to Saidman.

From my experience with arbitration, I very much doubt that the arbiter felt Saidman was “equally guilty of interfering” as previously alleged in this thread, otherwise he would not have been granted an award. That would have been inconsistent with the basic goal of fairness in arbitration. Case closed.

Well put nvmos2!
I too, knew the final results of this case. From Saidman Himself.
Hopefully this tread will now form a knot, and we can get on with other, more important duties. Like keeping our new members from getting screwed by Phoney machines.
Which was one of my main reasons for entering this Forum in the first place.
Bill

[MrCollector]

Bill you made a comment about "new members". I am assuming you mean COCA. This board is run by the hard work of 1 dedicated individual, and I applaud him. It appears that to keep new members it is up to individuals working by themselves to expand the hobby, COCA seems noticeably absent.

In the this thread there were 3 COCA members involved. COCA will continue to collect their dues. You singled out an auction house in some of your posts, and COCA will still accept their ads.

None of us truly own our coin-op machines. These machines will be around a lot longer then any of us. For this hobby to grow, we need younger and educated members. Screwing other collectors out of machines, and then after it is all settled taking advantage of this board to use a drive-by post that you quickly delete so it cannot be properly addressed shows some have not learned.

If we do not start to call out these collectors for their unacceptable behavior then newer collectors are going to be turned off when exposed to it.

This thread was just one story. Many of us have heard the story on the Columbus globe yet that person continues to sell them. We have heard stories of collectors paying other collectors to leave auctions. Shill bidding etc.

Hopefully COCA will start to walk the talk about what they were founded to do.

[SLOT DYNASTY]

Bill you made a comment about "new members". I am assuming you mean COCA. This board is run by the hard work of 1 dedicated individual, and I applaud him. It appears that to keep new members it is up to individuals working by themselves to expand the hobby, COCA seems noticeably absent.

In the this thread there were 3 COCA members involved. COCA will continue to collect their dues. You singled out an auction house in some of your posts, and COCA will still accept their ads.

None of us truly own our coin-op machines. These machines will be around a lot longer then any of us. For this hobby to grow, we need younger and educated members. Screwing other collectors out of machines, and then after it is all settled taking advantage of this board to use a drive-by post that you quickly delete so it cannot be properly addressed shows some have not learned.

If we do not start to call out these collectors for their unacceptable behavior then newer collectors are going to be turned off when exposed to it.

This thread was just one story. Many of us have heard the story on the Columbus globe yet that person continues to sell them. We have heard stories of collectors paying other collectors to leave auctions. Shill bidding etc.

Hopefully COCA will start to walk the talk about what they were founded to do.

No, I was not refering to COCA members above, but new members, in general, which have been coming into our coin-op hobby on a regular basis. Many seem to have not done their homework when it comes to buying outright, or bidding on eBay, and live auctions. I have seen many getting the 'Green-Weenie', when it comes to buying Repro Slots, and 'Made-Up Fantasy-Crap' Trade Stimulators, that are coming out of Vegas. Three more, which just hit ebay a couple of days ago.
All three have incorrect childish paintjobs, but two of them are closer to the original configuration, than most all have been in the past. It is also never mentioned in the descriptions about repro castings, (many of which DO NOT belong on some models), and incorrect fantasy reel strips & cards. Although one of these three does mention new reel strips. Check out eBay item #271165685065 - Daval "Daval Gum Vendor", and that's NOT a jackpot window below. It is a display window which held solid-colored marbles, to look like gumballs. If you won this 'So-Called Jackpot', the machine would have to be taken apart, to unscrew the metal compartment that the pennies are in. Item #221196847576 - Buckley "Ball Gum", which was originally a "Cent-A-Pack", noted by the 4 holes on the top casting, which he tore the nameplate from, and sold it seperately on eBay, along with the orig. cigarette strips. Item #221196921246 - Daval "Cent-A-Smoke", which never came with a jackpot. This style jackpot only came on two different Daval models. The jackpot is a recast. The background color of the new reel strips are way-off from the orig. dark green, and the award card is home-made as well.
I will also copy & paste this 'machine info' portion to a previous thread that I started, just in case many are not following this thread any longer.

[buzzojoe]

We are getting more and more off topic with this thread, but here's my 2 cents on it...
Yes, there are some people coming into the hobby. But unfortunately the hobby is DYING because the "elite", "old school" collectors are negative toward new people in the hobby, and also things like Video games and Pinball machines. Well I guess I need to ask why a coin operated machine has to be "acceptable" to certain people before it can be included in the hobby or acknowledged by a club. Ok, So you are 65 years old and a Video Game isn't relevant to you. But I can pretty much guarantee that to anyone under 50 a "magic fingers" bed vibrator or coin operated box where a " Happy Negro's" eyes move back and forth when you deposit a penny aren't very relevant either.....
And although like most others here I'm very opposed to fake or repro machines, we need to accept the fact that in ANY collecting scenario the combined scarcity and high price of "original" items is going to create a demand for reproductions. Very few people will ever be able to have an original Shelby AC Cobra. There aren't usually any available, and when they DO come up for sale they are a million bucks. But you can buy a repro AC cobra for $50K or so, and a LOT of people buy them and enjoy them!
Let's be honest. It's hypocritical to have one set of rules for things that we are passionate about, and another for things that don't matter to us (or that we don't have a financial stake in). I wanted a Coca Cola thermometer for the side of my barn. "real" ones are $500.00 or more, and I'm literally going to nail it to the outside of my barn wall. So I bought a Repro one for $50.00. I'm sure that to a serious Thermometer collector both the seller and I committed BLASPHEMY! But to me it's no big deal. Bottom line is that there are 50 people who care that a specific Tavern Boy is original or that a bursting Cherry never had Gold reel strips, and 5000 people who want a cool looking slot machine or trade stimulator to put next to their bar.......

[Dave]

....

Very few people will ever be able to have an original Shelby AC Cobra. There aren't usually any available, and when they DO come up for sale they are a million bucks. But you can buy a repro AC cobra for $50K or so, and a LOT of people buy them and enjoy them!
Let's be honest. It's hypocritical to have one set of rules for things that we are passionate about, and another for things that don't matter to us (or that we don't have a financial stake in). I wanted a Coca Cola thermometer for the side of my barn. "real" ones are $500.00 or more, and I'm literally going to nail it to the outside of my barn wall. So I bought a Repro one for $50.00. I'm sure that to a serious Thermometer collector both the seller and I committed BLASPHEMY! But to me it's no big deal. Bottom line is that there are 50 people who care that a specific Tavern Boy is original or that a bursting Cherry never had Gold reel strips, and 5000 people who want a cool looking slot machine or trade stimulator to put next to their bar.......

I think the issue most people have with the (coin op) fakes is that they are not advertised as fakes and in many cases sell for just as much as an original would (sometimes more, if you are in Vegas you will see fake Golden Nuggets for $4,995 (or more)).

The person who buys a $50K repro Cobra KNOWS it is a reproduction and that is fine. Real Cobras sell for much more than that. However, how would the guy feel if he just paid $250K for a Cobra which he thought was original and later turned out to be a fake.

Dave

[SLOT DYNASTY]

....

Very few people will ever be able to have an original Shelby AC Cobra. There aren't usually any available, and when they DO come up for sale they are a million bucks. But you can buy a repro AC cobra for $50K or so, and a LOT of people buy them and enjoy them!
Let's be honest. It's hypocritical to have one set of rules for things that we are passionate about, and another for things that don't matter to us (or that we don't have a financial stake in). I wanted a Coca Cola thermometer for the side of my barn. "real" ones are $500.00 or more, and I'm literally going to nail it to the outside of my barn wall. So I bought a Repro one for $50.00. I'm sure that to a serious Thermometer collector both the seller and I committed BLASPHEMY! But to me it's no big deal. Bottom line is that there are 50 people who care that a specific Tavern Boy is original or that a bursting Cherry never had Gold reel strips, and 5000 people who want a cool looking slot machine or trade stimulator to put next to their bar.......

I think the issue most people have with the (coin op) fakes is that they are not advertised as fakes and in many cases sell for just as much as an original would (sometimes more, if you are in Vegas you will see fake Golden Nuggets for $4,995 (or more)).

The person who buys a $50K repro Cobra KNOWS it is a reproduction and that is fine. Real Cobras sell for much more than that. However, how would the guy feel if he just paid $250K for a Cobra which he thought was original and later turned out to be a fake.

Dave

My point entirely Dave. About 98% of repro slots, are not advertized as such. If a person that is not a true collector, wants a repro for his gameroom, and pays accordingly, I see no harm in that. The worst part of all this, is there are literally thousands more repop slots, than there are non-collectors with gamerooms to put them in. Hence, the balance of them are passed of as originals, and the collector that did not do his research first, gets burned.
As far as Cobra's go, yes, the originals are in the million dollar category. There are two originals, and 5 or 6 repro's in our car club, and they all know exactly what they have. Also, most people that are not familiar with the Cobra line, do not know the difference between an AC and a Shelby. Look what happened with the '32 Ford many years ago. There weren't a ton of originals available, that hadn't become partial or total rust-buckets, from sitting outside. So, because of the extremely high demand of wanting a Deuce, they started making repro roadster bodys in fiberglass, as well as 3 window & 5 window models. Then later down the road, they were making steel-body repro's. I wouldn't want to make a guess, as to how many millions of repro Deuces are on the road today, and not just in the U.S., all over the Globe. Out of all the ones in our car club, there are only two or three originals. The big difference between car-buffs & slot-buffs, is that the car
person very seldom gets snookered by a repro, thinking it's original. They tend to do their research a little more thoroughly, as there are experts to contact for every make and model.

Wow! Talk about getting off the beaten-path! I get side-tracked far too often. This Forum is supposed to be focused on coin-op.

[marsonion]

The big difference between car-buffs & slot-buffs, is that the car
person very seldom gets snookered by a repro, thinking it's original. They tend to do their research a little more thoroughly, as there are experts to contact for every make and model.

Wow! Talk about getting off the beaten-path! I get side-tracked far too often. This Forum is supposed to be focused on coin-op.

Nah, let's keep digressing. The motorhead analogy-- even the Shelby connection-- is pertinent to the type of grift that coin-op collectors can expect. For instance, one of my brothers was the once-proud owner of a Sunbeam "Tiger" which turned out to have been a mendaciously converted Sunbeam Alpine. It turns out that a good portion of the "Tigers" out there are very deliberately faked-out Alpines, and there can be absolutely no excuse for this sort of product conversion and marketing... unlike the manufacture and sale of admitted reproductions, it is outright FRAUD to take one machine and retrofit it in such a way as to pass it off as another, more valuable item. Sound familiar--? Let's just say you have to "get smart" not only to out-and-out reproduction machines, but more so to the irredeemably nefarious misreprestorations puttering about out there. Now, for sure, all vintage auto aficianados are on guard against the proverbial "used car salesman." Coin-op collectors should be equally circumspect when interacting with coin-op dealers. Sad, but true.

Now, you may return to your regularly scheduled litigious carping.

[SLOT DYNASTY]

The big difference between car-buffs & slot-buffs, is that the car
person very seldom gets snookered by a repro, thinking it's original. They tend to do their research a little more thoroughly, as there are experts to contact for every make and model.

Wow! Talk about getting off the beaten-path! I get side-tracked far too often. This Forum is supposed to be focused on coin-op.

Nah, let's keep digressing. The motorhead analogy-- even the Shelby connection-- is pertinent to the type of grift that coin-op collectors can expect. For instance, one of my brothers was the once-proud owner of a Sunbeam "Tiger" which turned out to have been a mendaciously converted Sunbeam Alpine. It turns out that a good portion of the "Tigers" out there are very deliberately faked-out Alpines, and there can be absolutely no excuse for this sort of product conversion and marketing... unlike the manufacture and sale of admitted reproductions, it is outright FRAUD to take one machine and retrofit it in such a way as to pass it off as another, more valuable item. Sound familiar--? Let's just say you have to "get smart" not only to out-and-out reproduction machines, but more so to the irredeemably nefarious misreprestorations puttering about out there. Now, for sure, all vintage auto aficianados are on guard against the proverbial "used car salesman." Coin-op collectors should be equally circumspect when interacting with coin-op dealers. Sad, but true.

Now, you may return to your regularly scheduled litigious carping.

OK, OK, I forgot something very important, when I was in Car-Gear above. There are also the car owners, that have a plain-jane model, that they want to convert to a 'Wannabe' muscle-machine, via badge changes or additions, and accessories. Like a standard Camaro, and adding SS or Z28 badging & trim. They will be detected immediately by the true Camaro buff. If you are so bold as to tack 396 badges on the fenders, you'd best have the engine to back it up. I once had a 1968 Camaro SS, that a few people thought was a Wannabe, because I had taken off the original front spoiler, and put a larger, more functional aftermarket spoiler in place. It didn't come from the factory with wide-ass wheels & tires, or bocu mods to the engine either, but it was a true factory SS, and the serial proved it.
This is sorta like the 'Vegas Butcher Shop Fantasy Creations'. Hell, why have a plain-jane 3 reel cigarette trade stimulator, when you can have one with beer & whiskey paper, or homemade cigar-band strips, and a recast jackpot from some other mfrs. model, and painted incorrect colors. Now there's a real 'Wannabe'! Awhile back, I was asked by several people, to start writing machine articles again. I gave it some very serious thought, but decided 'Not Now', as some of the articles that I had on the back-burner, since The Coin Slot shut down, were of 'special', and 'one-of-a-kind', or 'very-few-known' models, that if I brought out into the light, would tempt 'Mr. Butcher' to start making them up as well. His game of Bastardizing, all started with the Groetchen "Tavern", many years ago. There were several originals in collectors hands at the time, but less than 20 known. Now, with the made-up Phoneys, there are hundreds. A perfect example of what I am talking about, are two other Groetchen models. The "Bartender", which I had the only known original example for many years, until a couple of others were discovered, and "The Fortune Teller", which I had 1 of 2 known. Now there are 4 or 5 originals. Then, as fate would have it, a couple of years ago, the Vegas Clown, somehow got his mits on both models, and removed the cast nameplates, and recast them, to make up even more of his Bogus Creations. I will not stop dwelling on this subject, as the more that is put in print, the more new collectors will read it, and hopefully not get a dose of the 'tube-sausage'.

[nvmos2]

buzzojoe:
Yes; you have taken us further off topic, but your comments still need clarification.

Why do you feel is hobby is dying?
Are you a newbie and mad because somebody here hurt your feelings by saying something negative about your Pac Man machine? Although most of the focus in this forum is on older mechanical machines, I don’t really see any “old-school collectors” or “elite” on this forum slamming somebody if they are interested in video games; it just does not come up much and there are other active forums for more modern stuff.
Or are you upset with those guys who could contribute to this forum but don’t. There are a lot of them and they have a lot of knowledge and expertise that would help many, but they just don’t seem to want to share it.
Or are you upset with the club you referred to? I sense there is a lot of that out there and I myself am no longer a member. I am sure they are following this forum, this topic in particular, I think most of them just don’t contribute.
Or is it something else all together?

What the heck is a “Happy Negro”? Are you referring to the mechanical bank? If so, that is a whole different area of collecting.

I don’t see the hypocrisy on this forum; who has a problem with putting a $50 thermometer that looks like a $500 original on your barn? I think that’s a good idea, but your analogy breaks down when applied to coinop. Where are you going to find a reproduction War Eagle for one tenth the price of an original? You will pay big bucks for a fake “restored” machine and most, if not all, the guys buying them are duped into thinking they got a vintage accurately restored machine.

Of the 5000 guys looking for one cool machine for the game room, NONE of them come to this forum looking for advice on how to buy a reproduction or poorly restored machine.
ALL the 50 guys want to know how to AVOID a reproduction or poorly restored machine and are the ones who are fortunate to have that information available here.
They WANT to know if a specific Tavern is a fake or if the Bursting Cherry should have gold reel strips BEFORE they bid on it.

I would hope that every time a bogus machine shows up at auction, the guys who know better point it out on this forum and are not discouraged from doing so by comments like yours.
Now THAT would make a contribution toward keeping the hobby alive.

EDIT: You may want to start a new topic on this.

[buzzojoe]

Nope. Not a newbie at all. Been collecting this stuff for 30 years. No one is going to hurt my feelings because I collect what my family and I like to have in our collection, and NOT what some COCA "Hall of Fame" inductee thinks should be in a collection. Sorry guys, but to me a 70's era Chicago Coin baseball machine is a LOT more fun than a machine from 1900 that gives you a shock when you grab the handles....
The "happy Negro" thing is a picture frame looking thing that has an African American Man's face on it, and his eyes and mouth open and close for like 20 seconds when you insert a penny.
I feel that the hobby is dying because (1)A majority of the coin op "elite" poo-poo and scold newbies who come to them looking for help. Most of us didn't start out buying Caille Double musical Eclipse machines. We bought cheap, junky machines that we fixed up with a LOT of help from GREAT guys like Dick Bueschel. But now when a kid tries to get help with something like a 1980's slot machine all he gets is "that is a piece of crap, and I don't have anything to do with junk like that. Oh, and you were an idiot for paying $500.00 for it..."
And (2), Arcades are all but dead and gone. When I was a kid, my buddies and I all hung out at the local arcades and dreamed of someday owning a pinball machine or "gun game" or shuffle bowler. Now kids all hang out in their basements playing their Xboxes and Playstations. So we have to be EXTRA helpful to newbies who are interested in coin op stuff because it's not something that they have grown up with.
As far as the fakes and repros go, I agree COMPLETELY that we need to inform people about fakes and repros that are being passed off as originals. But we have to be careful not to "scold" innocent sellers and buyers of the fake and repro stuff. Some of them just don't know any better and may not care that they are buying a fake as opposed to an original. And they might just get hooked on collecting coin op stuff (like we all did) IF we don't scare them away with our bad attitudes towards them....
Bottom line to me is that we just need to try to be as positive and helpful as possible to everyone in the hobby, whether they need help with a $20.00 Toy n Joy machine or a $30,000.00 Paces Races....