CoinOpCollectorForum.com

A guy contacted me who recently purchased a $.25 Bird.

He is wondering if the machine used to be a different coin denomination.

When I first heard that it was a $.25 Bird I thought oh, oh, because a lot of French Birds have been converted to $.25.

However, I know that most converted French Birds have skill stops and this one does not.

The horn on this particular bird is removable. I know Watling started putting on removable horns so they didn't have to have a special casting for each coin denomination.

I asked him to email me photos or the critical areas and have included them below.

The machine looks legitimate to me but since I NEVER convert the coinage on a machine I might be missing something.

Please take a look and let me know what you think.

Click on the photo for a larger view.

Thanks

I wrote a long explanation on how to tell and what to look for. I went and dinner, came back to finish and when I submitted it, I was told I had timed out. So here's the bottom line, while not being a faithful restoration, the Bird pictured is original.

Watlingboy

Too bad you had timed out. I would be very interested in your long explanations - I bought this Bird. .

Thanks

markus wrote:Too bad you had timed out. I would be very interested in your long explanations - I bought this Bird. .

Nice buy markus.

Yeah, pity, I was hoping to learn more too.
BTW, Love that Liberty Bell.
Want one (eventually) to sit next to my Operators'.
ap

O.K., I'll take one more try at this and see if I can finish it. Converting a Rol-A-Top to a different denomination is not easy and you have to have a huge inventory of parts. It is much easier to change a War Eagle to quarter than a Rol-A-Top. That is why you don't see repro Rol-A-Tops with working escalators. It is more common to exchange mechs in machines rather than change the coinage. Such as to take the 25 cent mech out of a coin front and put it in a cherry front. Which I don't recommend or condone. Watling continued to change and modify their mechanisms throughout the production run so you end up frequently mismatching the mech and cabinet plus you screwed up the machine from the way it left the factory.

Changing the denomination involves changing the thickness spacer ring which is around the escalator on the mech. This part is stamped with the denomination of the coin. The center of the escalator, the outside center plate, the one under the denomation badge is different for each denomination because this what holds the coin in. Under that is the thickness spacer. This part is also stamped with the denomination of the coin, 1, 5, 10, etc. The two part cast brass coin entry on the mech has to be changed. These are also stamped on the back what the denomation is. The casting or stamped steel part which holds the coin before entering the coin tube is coin specific and has to be changed. Coin tube, slides, horizontal fingers and denomination badge need to be replaced. Watling slides are not easy to come by either. And lastly you need to change or drill out the horn of plenty on the front casting. So you can see why changing the denomination is not easy and by taking out a few of screws, you verify the coinage.

Foreign Bird of Paradise machines are Rol-A-Tops made for the French market and work on a French franc. These coins are slightly smaller and thinner than a quarter. Lots of these have been brought back to the U.S. They are usually always vender fronts with gold award and skill stops. Rol-A-Tops for the American market with skill stops are rare. Because they have had lots of wear, they are frequently missing parts for the gold award and some or all the skill stops. French coin front machines are very rare. All the parts on the French Birds are stamped 25 cents. To make them work properly on a quarter, the round shim in the horn of plenty must be removed. The coin entry on the mech must be hogged out because it is too narrow for a quarter. The machines are almost always a 2/4 pay instead of a 3/5 and the pay is short because of the thinner franc so the slides have to be shimmed and the slides posts made taller.

So whether the denomination has been changed is usually not a concern, does the whole machine go together and match is a more important consideration.

Watlingboy

watlingboy: Thank you very much for the detailed professional information. I purchased this Bird and I would be interested in what you meant by saying ...while not being a faithful restoration.... Thanks, markus.

Markus:

I think what WatlingBoy meant was that the top castings were never painted all fancy like that when they left the factory. Instead they were just the gold lacquer color.

Many people who have birds like them to pop so they have the top castings painted. I am not saying doing so is good or bad.

Here is a picture of two birds. The one on the left is an untouched original. The one on the right has been restored and the top casting has been painted to non factory colors.

Dave is absolutely correct. Joel Gilgoff was the first person to bring the French and Belgium Birds back to the United States. He had a large store in California called Games. You can see lots of his ads in old Loose Change magazines. This happened in the late 1970's or early 1980's. When they arrived, the top casting was painted, mainly because the castings were so rough it was a way to cover up the breaks, welds and corrosion. He liked the look and started restoring them painted, you can see these in his ads. That's how the whole painting style got started. When all versions left the factory, the coin fronts, birds and cherry fronts, they were painted with clear tinted lacquer over a polished casting. This gives the cherries a candy apple look and the coin front and birds a polished brass look but they were never hand painted like the birds are done. The only exception is the Cherry Front. There are some that were painted with a solid red paint instead of the clear lacquer. Oddly enough, the castings on these were not polished because there was no reason to as you could not see the polished aluminum under the paint. Many people like the castings plated and ornately painted but they never left the factory that way.

Watlingboy

watlingboy wrote:Dave is absolutely correct. Joel Gilgoff was the first person to bring the French and Belgium Birds back to the United States. He had a large store in California called Games. You can see lots of his ads in old Loose Change magazines. This happened in the late 1970's or early 1980's. When they arrived, the top casting was painted, mainly because the castings were so rough it was a way to cover up the breaks, welds and corrosion. He liked the look and started restoring them painted, you can see these in his ads. That's how the whole painting style got started. When all versions left the factory, the coin fronts, birds and cherry fronts, they were painted with clear tinted lacquer over a polished casting. This gives the cherries a candy apple look and the coin front and birds a polished brass look but they were never hand painted like the birds are done. The only exception is the Cherry Front. There are some that were painted with a solid red paint instead of the clear lacquer. Oddly enough, the castings on these were not polished because there was no reason to as you could not see the polished aluminum under the paint. Many people like the castings plated and ornately painted but they never left the factory that way.

Watlingboy

Dave & George are both correct on this issue. I remember when Joel was bringing in the Birds, and putting on the flashy paint. Another person that deserves notoriety when it comes to Watling, is the late-great Stan Wilker. He was our very informative "Mr. Watling", before George stepped into his shoes. (Correct me if I am wrong). I have always been a 'Purest', when it comes to keeping machines in their original factory released state. But, I do tend to step ever-so-slightly over the line, when it comes to, "Some machines are so Butt-Ugly", before some of us decided to give them a 'wee-bit-o-help'. Point at hand here, is the Watling "Bird". I am in no way condoning some of the flashy 'Carnivalizing' of many other slots & trade stimulators that I have viewed over the years. Something else that was being done to some of the Coin-Front "Rol-A-Tor" & "Rol-A-Top" machines during restoration, was the application of gold-leaf on the coins. This is very tedious work, and takes only the well-trained to do it right. I was lucky enough to be taught by an old-school painter, that was a neighbor. When he passed several years ago, his Wife gave me his supply of gold-leaf, which I was extremely greatful.
I haven't done a Watling Coin Front for so long, that I wonder if the 'right-touch' is still in me! I also tip-toed over the line with just one small area on one of my trade stimulators years ago, which I have seen a couple of persons try to duplicate, but not exactly. You can see it on page 134, (top right), of Dick Bueschel's Bible, "Vintage Trade Stimulators & Counter Games". It is the 'one-eyed jack' logo to the right of the reel window. From the factory, it only had a couple of small dabs of red and blue paint, which was not very impressive. I made it look more realistic, in style of a playing card. All other paint colors on the machine are factory-correct. I have also found a couple of other machines that had gold paint on them, that was factory applied. This is a color that you would not think anyone would put on a coin machine, because gold being a metalic color, does not fair well with age. But who cared back then, right? One machine I found original gold paint on, was a rare model of a Fey machine, which Dick missed showing in his book. My other machine, is on page 77, (upper right), of the same volume. I have had, and seen many Chicago Club House models over the years, but this is the only one that I have seen residue of original gold paint on all the castings. Even the back door, which they never painted, except for the stripe indents on some, (not all). These larger textured areas of the castings were never painted on the top, sides, and back, on these machines. Only on occassion, on the front casting, but only in red or black. There were also differences in the paint colors on all the indented stripes. Some groups were red & black, and others were either all red or all black.
This will be your history lesson for the day. Class is dismissed!