Values

[gamblingman]

I have a topic for the group, but I don't want to open this up to be about a discussion on fakes, reproductions, frankensteins, etc.....although I will readily admit they do play a part in the overall question I am about to ask..

Jim Roller and I were conversing about values the other day, and how the market for some coin-op devices (Mostly High-end Diggers) has really taken a hit over the past few years. Most of what we were talking about was of the more high-end variety, but I was curious as to other people's take on the subject when it comes to coin-op in general. I know antique slot values range all over the place, and from what I see in the minimal collecting and restoration I do, I haven't see much of a drop in the bottom-end, run of the mill prices.....some yes, but not a bunch. There are still bargains to be had, although they are fewer and farther in between. For those of you that collect the higher-end stuff, or for those long-time collectors, what is your take on the market over the past several years? Has it gone down or up? I know the economy plays a huge role here, and I am probably going to get different views of what is happening.....but that is what I am looking for. Just trying to have an intelligent conversation that does not revolve around "the Vegas Butcher"..........

[Bill zap]

I really started to hold on to the slots that I have been buying from homes pickers estate sales and auctions. In the past I would flip these items to Frank Sr.. However I've always liked them and am in a position to keep what I find. In the last year I've collected about 24 plus slots and about 10 trade stimulators and gum/ nut machines. I've seen the pickers prices going up these last few years with I would say the average price that I have paid being in the 800 to 1500 range. The high end of 1500 is for auction buys and the low 800 is for the picks out of the house. The big question is are any of the prices on eBay real buys. I know we are suppose to ignore the butcher in this discussion but I can't help notice that he has a 100 per cent feedback. Also if the prices I see other dealers have at the coin op show are real prices take maybe 15. % off for discounting and I do see a lot leave then let's draw conclusions from that too. Also there were three futruity machines that I seen one that was sold on Thursday complete working for 3000, and then one Jay Lowe had for asking price 3000 with a side vendor missing its back cover that sold within the hour in the parking lot on Friday morning and then one at the show a guy was asking 4000 for and it was missing the top bonus feature and replaced with a mirror....I don't think that sold. A friend of mine sold a duchess with no side vendor and older restoration for 3200. One thing I would like to comment on is that in my experience dealing with collectibles and antiques we have to be aware that there is not just collectors out there. I have sold items as props or decor for restaurants movies etc for a lot more then any collector would pay. Also I have had the customer that wants something extra nice that is working and has flash and really don't care about a collector value. What a lot of the people on this forum don't understand or get is that there is a lot of people with a lot of money who don't care about price as much as they care about convenience, service and flash. They don't have the time to dig through and search out the best deals.....time is money for them and believe me they are happy to pay for the service and convenience.

[Bill zap]

Me again....why is it that the Europeans come here and buy jukeboxes here restore them and get what we call crazy money for them? Same with the coke machines? Why does vca do well with all the restored stuff? People keep saying oh you can't go by those prices.....my retort is why not? People are paying real money for these items ....as is,restored, butchered and over restored. Ask the sign guys what has happened to gas and oil signs since the millionaires who buy all the hi powered cars started to buy signs to decorate their " museums". They have gone through the roof. Someone ought to get mecum or Barrett Jackson to run some slots through their auctions....I know the coke machines are doing crazy. But again look at who's doing the buying...wealthy guys looking for toys. I bet if someone did up some reels with corvettes and mustangs and a hot rod slot machine they would do fabulous. Maybe take all those bogus golden nuggets and fix them up. Boy that would get all the collectors here....Lol.

[clubconsoles]

Just a hunch, but maybe the OP "gamblingman" has opened this discussion because the beautiful job he did on his Treasure Island digger failed to attract any decent bids on his recent eBay auction?
I for one was real shocked to see it end with only one bid of $550?
I feel the BIN price of $3000 was perfectly realistic for the quality of the restoration performed, obviously no digger buyers looking on eBay at that time. Think its just a case being in right place at right time?
I think he would have got the BIN price in the VCA auction, or maybe more?
I know that at $5000 my Buckley Deluxe Digger was certainly no Bargain, but I am happy with it.
I know that 90% of Joe public think I am crazy to spend that kind of money on an 80 year old arcade machine.
I live in the UK and the hobby is much more niche here but diggers always seem to do well!
in the past 5 years I have sold 3 diggers a Electric Travelling crane for equivalent of $2900 a Streamline merchantman for $2250 and an imperial for $1200.
The one thing I have learned is it may take several months to get the "right" price for a premium piece and if you try and turn them around quicker than that you have to accept a much lower price 90% of the time.

[gamblingman]

First, thanks for the compliment on the restoration, but you are only partially right. I started the topic because of several conversations Jim and I had on another digger that sold on ebay last week. It was one he restored a few years earlier, and was a great looking Novelty Merchantman. He was very upset at the price it brought.....being under half of what he originally sold it for. I should have bought it, but I have been concentrating on Buckley diggers of late. Along with the Treasure Island, I just finished a Jewel Box Digger that I posted pics of in a separate topic, and I am now in the beginning stages of another Jewel Box and a Deluxe that were recently found out in California. I was secretly hoping the Treasure Island wouldn't sell, because I really like having them around......my wife, not so much! lol There are too many games, slots, and trade stimulators for her liking, and I have agreed to thin the herd at some point. She just rolled her eyes the other day when I carted in the Exhibit Supply Dale Gun I picked up. I guess it is a sickness.

More than anything, I wanted to open the discussion because as others have already noted, people do pay crazy prices for things at times, but are those anomalies or really where the market is? As my father always said, "it is worth what someone is willing to pay".....and in the case with Jim, I think a lot of his customers paid more because of his name, and the reputation he has gained for quality work. I'm not so sure I would have gotten the same response, no matter what quality of work I turned out...I don't have the reputation. It's the same with slots....I'm sure many of you who are well known, will get a higher dollar for your items, because others know your reputation.....and after all, you are a member of COPS for goodness sake! lol As Bill Zap pointed out, there are many high-end buyers looking for quality, for their own collections, AND many are willing to pay for it.......but as always, the key is having the right connections, and reaching the right people.

I have other buyers and pickers all of the time tell me that shows like "American Restoration" and "American Pickers" have ruined the hobby by driving up the prices. That may be true in some cases, but I don't think that is really the case overall. If you stay away form the auction houses and galleries, there are bargains to be had. I just bought a Mills High Top at a yard sale here in Chicago for $700 because that is what he was asking, and that was what I was willing to pay.

I was thinking more in general terms when I made the post......as to where the hobby has been, and where it is headed. I try not to go by ebay on much of anything, because as already stated, you never know how many of those sales are real. It kills me when these "Pawn Shows" value a product by what they see on ebay. I'll admit the proliferation of fake devices does damage the reputation of the industry, but with the exception of some pieces reproduced in mass quantity, I don't think they have killed values too much. There very well may be less buyers because of the fakes, but I think the values for the original pieces are still up there.

And with all of that said, I will tell you the REAL reason for my post.....I was really just trying to get the topic switched to something more positive and philosophical than what I have been seeing of late in my mailbox! lol

Joe

[gamblingman]

By the way ClubConsoles....I will be in Cambridge and London in August....are you anywhere close?

[clubconsoles]

Hi Joe
Cambridge is an hour and half from me, willing to meet you for a drink and lunch, I have a couple of hour Business I could do in Cambridge at the same time!
pm me your travel plans!!
Thanks
Nigel

[Bill zap]

I do have to say that a lot of collectibles have taken a hit in the last few years. Some of it I chalk up to the recession some of it to eBay and some to the fact that a lot of knowledge in general wasn't passed on to potential new collectors. Also the fact that casino gambling and other forms are so wide spread that the allure of owning something illegal has lost its mystique. But I believe that we are starting to experience an upswing in the business...I ve had my two best shows at Chicagoland ever! Even better than the days of the European invasion. Also I believe that shows like pickers have been good because it is introducing a younger audience to all sorts of vintage items. Now let's get back to the value question....I do not believe that eBay is the way to sell hi value items like your digger. Mr big bucks is not surfing ebay looking for items. Now here comes the tricky part of value and getting it.....so like someone said you can get that money at an auction but you sacrifice the percentage for the auction fees and shipping etc. plus you want to attract the attention of Mr big bucks. So what does one do? Bring it to the coinop show ask a dealer buddy to put in their booth for a piece of the action or talk to an auction house and cut a deal.....or advertise it in a high line magazine and pay their fees. So the question has become how much do you want to lose to make a profit?

[gamblingman]

You make a good point Bill, that's why I try not to put any real stock into what items sell for on ebay. I posted it there more to prove to the Mrs. that I was making an attempt! lol There are very few folks that can actually make a living out of restorations...you need to deo it, do it well, and then get a name. Once you have the reputation, high end buyers will come to you.....although I will admit there are fewer of those buyers due to many of the things you listed such as the recession, and not passing knowledge along. Fewer and fewer folks are willing to turn a screwdriver anymore......meaning fewer are being taught like I was leaning over the work bench watching my dad and grandpa. At some point I will make a more solid attempt to sell a digger or two, but for now they are still eating nickels in my rec room. I have a couple of other Buckley diggers I am just starting on, so I may produce some base cabinets and try and peddle them at the coin-op show. I was really disappointed to see no diggers at the last show....so maybe there is a void that needs filled.

[Bill zap]

I ve started to see something interesting at the last couple of shows is that there have been some pretty wealthy players showing up at Chicagoland. Nice unassuming people who have an interest in a lot of different fields. That is really encouraging. And yes it is sad that so many people don't know how to turn a screwdriver. I think it is unfortunate that everybody wants their kid to be white collar. My two boys started building things at an early age with a few tips from the old man but no interference or critic from same. From putting together RC cars to skate board ramps they have progressed to one being a master auto mechanic before the age of 23 to the other one being a finishing carpenter....yea I m proud of them. Now if I could get them interested in fixing up a couple of slots that I have laying around ........maybe future mechanics and collectors to keep the hobby going. Well talk to ya later.